Misconception- The beach will not close

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Re: Misconception- The beach will not close

Post  va to obx on April 23rd 2008, 4:15 pm

I have been coming to Frisco for 8+ years. I have friends that have come for 20+ years. We have become friends with Locals. I go there because I grew up with the natural beaches of Michigans west coast and this is the closest I can get to that feeling. The biggest impact of closing the beaches to 4x4's will be the thousands of people parking along 12 and climbing over the dunes dragging coolers and beachware. This will then be eliminated to stop the destruction of the dunes and all access to the beaches will be shut off. OBX will then lose goverment funding for replenishing the beaches after hurricanes and then we can expect no more than ten years before total destruction of what is an incedible amount of money for the NC goverment. I suggest we do a park in on the beaches if the judge rules against driving on the beach and let them tow all of us off.

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Re: Misconception- The beach will not close

Post  Pee Paw on April 22nd 2008, 3:44 pm

anna mos wrote:you don't need your suv to enjoy the beach. if you believe that, then you are the idiot.
but keep driving it (preferably w/ the hammer down), your president & his arab business partners selling us oil, love you for it.

there are as many natives who don't want you, your money or your gas-guzzling suv on their island as there are transplanted businessmen who do.

FYI: i've hiked many a mile carrying my surfboard & backpack to empty beaches.

I know this gal she works for DOW and has never walked more than 100yards in her life. She is a green bean.

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This guy may be it!!

Post  Frank Folb Jr on April 21st 2008, 9:26 pm


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SHERRY

Post  HYDRAFISH2 on April 21st 2008, 8:32 pm

I KNOW IT SEEMS HOPELESS, I FEEL FRUSTRATED AS WELL. IT SEEMS THAT THERE IS CLOG IN THE INFORMATION HIGHWAY CONCERNING THIS ISSUE. I DO NOT KNOW WHY, AND AS CITIZENS THERE SHOULD BE A PUBLIC UPROAR. I AM STILL OF THE MIND THAT SOMEWHERE IN THE NEWS WORLD THERE IS AN INDIVIDUAL THAT WOULD WANT TO PRESENT THIS TO THE PUBLIC. IT IS IRRITATING AS HECK. THAT MY VIEW. bounce bounce
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hydra..

Post  sherrymskt on April 20th 2008, 7:06 pm

I have been emailing and emailing the national news groups. been posting on i-caught also which is part of abcnews, there has been many views but no comments. been reading everything everywhere in regards to birds to sum it up bird management seems to be a big issue in our gov. somebody needs to be getting the gas prices down. kinda getting at my wits ends but i will keep pushing on.

prime example of bird management: the geese and correct me if i am wrong, there was management on them for years, and now they are starving, the young is to weak to travel, so what does the gov do? put a bigger limit on how many can be killed and expanded the hunting season. Go figure.
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RESPONSE TO BEACHLOVE

Post  HYDRAFISH2 on April 20th 2008, 4:41 pm

IT IS NOT THE REGULAR PEOPLE IN THESE ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE AT ISSUE. THEIR INTENTIONS ON BOTH SIDES ESPECIALLY THIS ISSUE ARE GOOD. THE PREMISE OF THE ORGANIZATIONS ARE GOOD. IT IS THE ELITE RUNNING THEM AND THE "PEOPLE IN THE KNOW" THAT DO NOT ALLOW FOR HONEST SOLUTIONS.ORGANIZATIONS HAVE BECOME CORRUPT TO A POINT OF STEPPING ON REGULAR PEOPLES TOES. THIS IS A BASIC RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO BE HEARD. BIG MONEY AND BIG POWER, BIG AGENDAS, THE REGULAR JOE HAS LITTLE SAY. THIS SITUATION TO ME IS A TAKING OF RIGHTS UNDER A FALSE PREMISE. QUESTION: WHY WOULDN'T THE AUDUBON AND THE DEFENDERS OF WILDLIFE TAKE THE ADOPTED PLAN THAT WASN'T FILED WITH GOVT AS THE ONE? WHAT STOPPED THEM FROM JUST ACCEPTING THAT ONE THAT WASN'T FILED? THAT IS WHAT THE INTERIM PLAN WAS BASED UPON. Question VALID POINTS HAVE BEEN POSTED ON BOTH SIDES OF THIS ISSUE. HOWEVER THE BIG GAME PLAYERS ARE THE PUPPET MASTERS BEHIND THE SCENES. YOU CANNOT REGULATE NATURES BEHAVIOR. THAT IS ALSO ANOTHER PROBLEM IN GOVERNMENT. TRYING TO REGULATE EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE. WHAT ARE WE ROBOTS. THIS ISSUE IN NOT EVEN IN THE NATIONAL NEWS MEDIA. THAT SAYS SOMETHING IN ITSELF. Cool
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Re: Misconception- The beach will not close

Post  kbrite on April 19th 2008, 11:20 pm

Frank Folb Jr wrote:We have a good group Superintendent now in Mike Murray and law enforcement head man John McCutchin. These gentlemen are realists and know how to use common sense. They also scare the crap outta eco wackos because of these traits. So we should try and support them as well as we can.

Frank Folb Jr
Folks,
Frank speaks the truth!!! This is the best NPS group since I've lived here. (15yrs)
K

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I think I managed to get it all out!!

Post  beachlove on April 19th 2008, 4:26 pm

I think this whole situation is really sad. I empathize with you and everyone who depends on the tourism on the Outer Banks for their livelihood. My observation is that many of you are holding on tight to a lifestyle and a recreation/past time that is loved, depended on, but in this ever-changing world cannot stay the same. As population increases on the Banks, so do it's effects. I have even heard fisherman saying they are having to take their tours further and further out to sea even to get to the fish. What are these changes telling us? The Outer Banks are different, they continuously change.
The only way this problem can get solved is by working together, to see there is another side to this. By not working together look at what has happened. I think there can be beach access to vehicles, but maybe the time has come where it needs to be regulated differently now. People do have good reasons for saving these birds and the habitat. Their true intention is not to create hatred and ruin your lives, or take away your money. They believe that keeping the planet healthy and alive for generations to come maybe is important enough to try and protect it. They want to make a difference and make the world a better place, to THEM, they ARE thinking outside themselves.
Maybe as you say some birds may not react to vehicles-but some do, I HAVE observed this. There has been research has been done on this. And I am pretty sure these scientists purpose for doing this research had nothing to do with trying to ruin lives. If you can get around that maybe this has nothing to do with you personally. They don't go around the country just ruin lives because they enjoy acting evil. They believe it is important. To some, its just a bird- to them I say- you just donít get it and maybe never will.
Maybe some people might have to adapt and figure out new ways to earn a living. Although I really believe tourism will still exist in that beautiful place even if some beach is closed. I truly believe there will still be some business for the fisherman and everyone else, but not if we lose our natural resources the place has to offer. I went to Costa Rica this past winter. There is a whole country that is making most of their money from eco- tourism because they protect their parks and species. This draws people and business there.
I hope and think both sides can work together and come to a solution. But I can bet you will get no where if you dig your heals in and close your mind. In the end it may not be the perfect solution you want, like keeping everything the same as it was thirty years ago or whatever, it may require some changes.
On a personal note, I saw the park bend over backwards to try and accommodate ORV users. As a biotech I had to work overtime many a day so we could escort people to their fishing spots. The park could have just closed it down. I also observed the ORV users fight tooth and nail over almost EVERY new closure. It was hard for me to observe the willingness to work with the park that you describe. I had people taking pictures of me, watching me with binoculars, and put shaving cream on the door of my government vehicle while working as a biotech on the beach. It was scary. Imagine my impression of the ORV users toward me, which was of hatred, not understanding and ignorance. I thought it was a nice idea when the beach buggy people had a dinner with the park service night, although we all felt really uncomfortable going. Look at what has been created. I enjoyed working in Hatteras, I loved that on Ocracoke one day the naked beach goers helped me put up my signs, I loved being able to be a part of releasing the turtles so the public could observe, I loved playing on the summer softball league, and I loved having beach fires, and yes I even enjoyed the day when a friend drove me to a good surf spot, and many other things about the place. So yes- I am guilty by association because I work for the park service. I work for the Nation's best idea, to save our beautiful spaces and species so every generation can enjoy it. I sure don't do it for the pay, I have no health insurance, I probably won't even be able to save any money by the end of this season (which is not in Hatteras), and do not have my own home. Good luck to all I will be keeping an curious eye on this situation.

cheers cheers

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Evan

Post  Frank Folb Jr on April 18th 2008, 8:04 am

I apologize for offending you, BUT I will never apologize for my passion towards this cause. NEVER!!

You worked for the park her on Hatteras Island until 2005 yet you say you have just learned of this situation. Come on man, your posts sound like Marcia typed them for you.!!

You say we should work together. First off anyone who knows anything about DOW, National audobon knows that they go from one end of the US screwing with the lives of humans and their economies and can care less about anything but their agenda. Well guess what Evan, WE the ORV user groups have tried to sit down and work things out to come to a faur balance for nature and access. We have continued to be the good, solid citizens in our community that tried to keep from having our economy destroyed. As we sat at the table working with these people they sneak off to Raleigh and file a lawsuit wanting to close the beaches, COMPLETELY.

Again as I posted before, you think you know what is good and bad for Hatteras Island but unfortunately you are clueless.

Many times I have driven alongside the closures and watched the birds, especially terns. They never move!! But then get out of the truck and walk beside the same section of closure and watch how quickly those same birds become aggressive. Sorry, your ORV scares the birds theory just does not work for me. My knowledge doesn't come from a book or from the mouth of MADduck, or ryslander, or marcia I have mine so the rest get off. My knowledge comes from years of observation. Years of being on that beach almost daily. So when people come in here that don't know the South Beach from the Pamlico sound telling me what's best for my island, I Take Offense!!

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Re: Misconception- The beach will not close

Post  boatdrinks on April 17th 2008, 10:19 pm

Gosh another Park Service expert. Imagine that. Guilty by association.
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And another

Post  Surffiend on April 17th 2008, 6:08 pm

I am just curious what would be acceptable to OBPA as far as bird and turtle closures? It just seems like on one hand you say you are willing to negotiate, but then you say that plovers do not even belong in Cape Hatteras. Would you be OK with bird closures if they were smaller? What if they had the closures, but opened a few more beach ramps? What did you think about the escort program? Were you for or against it? Please tell me how you were willing to negotiate, and perhaps you can change my opinion.

I still believe that a compromise can be reached.

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One more thing

Post  Surffiend on April 17th 2008, 5:48 pm

Frank, also, is it productive to call them eco wackos? I can't recall meeting you, but I'm guessing you are a pretty nice guy. Most of the people I met down there were, some were big time ORV people, some were Audobon people. The Audobon people didn't strike me as wackos, nor did the ORV people. I disagreed on quite a bit with both. Maybe I was wrong by saying that you went into Neg Reg with a closed mind, but I had dinner and hung out about four hours with an ex NCBBA president and he clearly stated that NCBBAs opinion was to ask for unrestricted access and no closures because they knew when it came to compromising they would lose some of that so the farther to the extreme they went, the more they would have to negotiate. I wish I could remember his name, but he seemed like a reasonable guy. I also know from working there that we would catch crap from people for putting up a turtle closure that cut off about 50 yards of beach and still had access to both sides, in fact, it seemed like people got upset almost regardless of where closures went up.

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Sorry Frank

Post  Surffiend on April 17th 2008, 5:37 pm

My name is Evan Pickford, and I take a bit of offense to the remark that I fill my remarks with lies and half truths. It goes to the paragraph that throwing insults is not going to get this issue resolved. I am not your enemy, I am not a member of Audobon, I used to work for NPS as a campground and law enforcement ranger. I was the last seasonal LE ranger to ever work at Hatteras, I would have stayed but the park decided to get rid of hiring seasonal LE rangers (hopefully not because of me). I fish some, it is not my main hobby, but I love having both pedestrian and vehicle access to the beach. I know firsthand how far of a walk it is if you want to surf the cove (by the Point) because I did not always have 4WD when I lived there.

Am I opposed to the beach being completely closed? Yes, but in many ways I think it was inevitable because the sides had become so intractable. You don't want to look at OBPA or NCBBA as doing anything wrong, but when I worked there I had people with their OBPA stickers (and many without) cuss at me for putting up a closure or telling them to slow down near a bird closure. All I was doing was my job, just because I help put up a bird closure doesn't mean I hate ORV users. Yes, I am not from Hatteras, but that doesn't mean my opinion is stupid or I don't have a clue what is going on.

You state that in the past 15 years only 5 plovers on average have nested at Cape Hatteras. Well, I would call this a half truth. 20 years ago or so, about 15 or 20 (this is a rough estimate, i don't have the data in front of me, but it is not a lie or half truth) nested annually. Now its 2, 3 if you are lucky, so yes, it averages out to about 5 a year, but clearly the numbers are declining. This is largely why they are listed on the endangered species list. Is this all due to ORVs? No, and I never said that. Predators are a major cause. Maybe the money raised from permits could be used to really start trapping and neutering feral cats. However, predators ARE tied to human use. People leave their trash on the beach (and NCBBA picks it up, thank you). Fisherman throw entrails and bait on the beach. These things attract predators. So does the huge population growth on the islands. If you look at Cape Lookout, they have many more nesting plovers, and it is because of the reasons above. North Carolina is piping plover habitat, that is the TRUTH. You can ignore that and call me a liar, but you are not accomplishing anything. Are ORVs constantly running over plovers? NO! But do they affect plovers? YES! Here is how:

When cars pass by a plover nest, if they come too close, the bird will leave the nest, thus exposing the eggs to predators. Same with an unfledged chick, the bird cannot pay attention to gulls and foxes if it is worried about an SUV. In fact, the plovers in Hatteras usually will not even make a nest if the area has too much vehicle traffic. Strangely enough, at Cape Cod, where I am now working, the birds are much less affected by SUVs and people, you can come much closer to the nest than in Hatteras, I do not know why, perhaps it is the way the beaches are different or it could be because the birds in Hatteras are under much more pressure from predators and ORVs.

Frank, you may disagree with me, and I certainly disagree with some of what you say, but I am not a liar and do not have some secret agenda. I hope to someday move back to the area but without my park job it really is not affordable for me.

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Sorry fiend

Post  Frank Folb Jr on April 17th 2008, 5:07 pm

I have read enough just reading your first paragragh and last.

You moved from here in 2005. Guess what?? We were in the middle of this in 2005. You like so many other chose to turn a blind eye to the problem. As I posted earlier, WE the ORV user groups, sat down with the eco wackos and DOI in 1976-78 and came up with a plan that has been working just fine since then. It is not the fault of ORV users that DOI and NPS lost the plan on it's way to DC, As for your remaks about ORV users going into NegReg with the closures not acceptable attitude BS pal, you are far from the truth. We understand that resouces protection is necessary but we want to be sure that human access is treated fairly as well. As for permits, you are right to a degree. We are against permits, because the cost will grow every year and it will give NPS a way to limit the number of pepole on the beach. Sorry but if I get off work at 6pm and wanna go fishing I don't wanna wait until someone else comes off the beach. I'm going when I want to go.

As for Cape Cod and their recovered plovers. DUHHH That's because they have plovers up there. That's prime plover territory. Cape Hatteras is not was not and never will be. Do you know how many pairs of plovers nested on Hatteras Island last year or over the past 15 years. On average 5 pair!!?? How many plover chicks were killed by ORV's on the beach.NONE!! Now how many were killed by predators??LOTS!!

You talk real well, you could probably join ryslander and madduck raising $$ for audobon with your half truths and lies. Fact is you really don't have a clue to the true situation here on Hatteras Island and most likely never will.

Who are you?? Give me a name to go with the words so I know who I'm talking to. Besides that it may make me say, No Wonder!!

Frank Folb Jr,.

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Plenty of blame to go around

Post  Surffiend on April 17th 2008, 3:58 pm

I haven't gone through all the posts, this issue just came to my attention as I moved away from Buxton in 2005. However, the ORV users seem to be placing most of the blame on the NPS and enviro groups. I think this issue has finally come to a head and these groups have some blame, but ORV users need to look in the mirror. Part of the reason the NPS never got an ORV plan was because the plan almost inevitably would have further restricted ORV use and this was very strongly opposed by ORV users, to the point of threats of violence against NPS employees on sites like the Red Drum website. Yes, ORV groups agreed to the negotiated rulemaking, but went in with the attitude that any closure at all is unacceptable, that permits are unacceptable, that the birds really are out of their natural habitat, etc. Unfortunately for ORV groups, the law is on the side of the environmental groups, as piping plovers and sea turtles are required to be protected by law. Therefore, the enviros were more reluctant to go to a negotiated rulemaking since if the case went to court it was pretty clear the enviros would win.

I think that restrictions on beach use were inevitable. Visitation at Cape Hatteras has grown to over 3 million visitors per year. Yes, once you used to be able to drive on the beach from Virginia to Hatteras Village only getting off to cross Oregon Inlet, but that is just not feasible any more. For those who live on the Outer Banks, it may seem silly to close parts of the beach for a few small birds, but it is tied to the idea that every species deserves a chance, and with unrestricted ORV use, plovers have no chance on the Outer Banks. It also is about protecting a unique habitat. The growing popularity of the beach in the past 50 years has left few barrier islands as undeveloped as those on the Outer Banks, so birds like plover, terns, skimmers and oystercatchers have diminishing populations that rely on the Outer Banks for survival. The best thing that could happen for everyone would be for plovers to recover to a point where they are removed from the endangered species list. There were many people within the NPS that were trying to help plovers recover, but most of these were forced out by ORV groups and their influence because they were "bird-Nazis" or "eco-freaks". Well, the restrictions and closures these employees put up in years past were far less restrictive than those now in place, so maybe ORV users need to rethink their opinion that any closure is evil.

This is just a suggestion, but for everyone that is filled with rage about these new beach restrictions, try to not think as the NPS and enviros as your enemies, but rather realize that all of you are trying to protect the Outer Banks, albeit for different reasons, and you probably have more in common than you think. Stop placing blame and realize that everyone is going to have to make some sacrifices, yes, parts of the beach will be closed, but there is still going to be some beach open if everyone comes to the table with a true willingness to compromise.


On a side note to previous post:

As far as Hatteras being unique because it has eight villages in a National Seashore dependent on the beach and driving for its economy, I have to somewhat disagree. Cape Cod has five villages along the seashore and is dependent on recreation at the beach. They have an ORV plan, which is very restrictive, far more so than I think the enviros would have been willing to accept, yet their economies are doing OK. People will come to the beach even if they cannot drive on it (and I am not in favor of banning ORVs on the beach, I am actually for ORVs, but think they must be willing to accept some restrictions). Furthermore, plovers have essentially recovered at Cape Cod (they do not get nesting sea turtles). If plovers recovered elsewhere in their range (notably, NC, MD, VA), they would be a prime candidate for removal from the Endangered Species List.

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diva

Post  Frank Folb Jr on April 17th 2008, 10:55 am

There are beaches up and down the East Coast that are accessable by ORV's. Most are limited by permits and how many can drive at one time. But few if any are as unique as Hatteras Island. We are a national seashore yes, but unlike others there are 8 Villages located IN the park. And our economy is ORV and Pedestrian access on the beaches driven!!

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Just Curious....What other public beaches in the USA are driven upon?

Post  oceandiva on April 17th 2008, 10:38 am

Who can answer this for me?

Responses from official gov't or official environmental groups are most welcome.....

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Re: Misconception- The beach will not close

Post  Frank Folb Jr on April 17th 2008, 10:34 am

I know all about the " got us by the short hairs". Ifelt much worse while being forced to accept something that did not make me happy!!

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Re: Misconception- The beach will not close

Post  boatdrinks on April 17th 2008, 9:46 am

Too little too late Jr. They've never been our friend and never will be. They laid down like a whipped puppy and now look what's happened and guess who pays for it all. An ORV plan could have been written in a day and elimated that issue. Judge Boyle didn't have to approve that. Now Boyle runs the park and we pay the bills all the while Defenders of Wildlife knows they have us by the short hairs. The NPS gets what they've wanted for years once this plan fails. Nobody cares about heritage or customs. Overdevelopment elsewhere moved the wildlife to more remote spots so what was once a good thing has now soured. Do you really think it was by accident that a presidential order was ignored for 35 years?
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Yes BUT

Post  Frank Folb Jr on April 17th 2008, 7:43 am

We have a good group Superintendent now in Mike Murray and law enforcement head man John McCutchin. These gentlemen are realists and know how to use common sense. They also scare the crap outta eco wackos because of these traits. So we should try and support them as well as we can.

Frank Folb Jr

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Re: Misconception- The beach will not close

Post  boatdrinks on April 16th 2008, 9:49 pm

I've seen the park service patrol the closed beaches on Ocracoke just trying to catch someone nude sunbathing. Now how do you justify driving in a remote closed area with people a half a mile apart as if they wouldn't be seen 2 miles before they got to them? The park has never been managed properly and that's how we got where we are today.
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Re: Misconception- The beach will not close

Post  DawsonRy on April 8th 2008, 5:00 am

These guests telling people to walk do not know how far away the ocean is. This is not some strip of beach that you just take a two minute walk across some dudes to reach. This is miles of beach. My cousin and I walked from the Point to Cape Hatteras Motel one time and it took several hours. We went ahead and walked to the end instead of turning onto old light house road just to be able to say well I walked across Buxton by beach. Also good luck carying a boat on your back to do any spoon fishing. Also the tempature of the sand out on the south beach it hot enough to melt sandal bottoms, try having to push out a stuck car for tourist in the mid-July sometime. It would be the same distance as telling everyone in New york to walk across the whole city and never use a cab or subway, but in the heat with nothing around should somehting happen as it could to older people, people carrying babies and young children etc.

Plus the point is mute they want to ban all beach access and if they follow what they have done to other areas they will be re-opening the beach for a fee with all the money going to the Park Dis-Service.

Don't give this forum troll any more attention. Also dear admin make people register a name to post, get rid of the guests option.

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a deeper look

Post  coastal1 on April 7th 2008, 8:37 am

Every day in the past month, I have found something more, some information that delves deeper into the issues,like how Bush made this Migratory Bird Initiative...allocating millions of $$ to the Fish & Wildlife & Dept of the Interior...dollar amounts that include funds for grants for "conservation groups"...like, i suppose, mmmm maybe potentially Audubon and Defenders of Wildlife, perhaps? ??It could be construed possibly the conservation groups could be seen as biting the hands that could feed them $$$ in the future to continue to do what they are doing right now....is this why The SELC,Audubon & DOW suddenly wanted to negotiate a settlement instead of allowing the injunction that the judge said he was inclined to grant??An injunction(and an INJUSTICE) that they initially sought & wanted?
I have a lot of questions because something deeper is going on here.
This whole closing access mess smells like a barrel of dead fish.

This story deserves attention by 60 minutes on CBS or Dateline or 20/20.
There is a lot more going on here underneath it all than we can realize, it seems.
We who live here respect our beaches, the wildlife that surrounds us and have been able to
live within that delicate balance. Our lifestyles, heritage and economic survival are all impacted
and in jeopardy should these closings be implemented.It is our human rights that are in jeopardy here.[i]

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Super restricted

Post  FleetSox on April 7th 2008, 12:14 am

Check what you say carefully. they want to keep people from walking on the beach too. and if you can't walk, you cant surf or fish. Let me know when you learn how to fly.

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cat againt bird = peace

Post  sweetsto on April 3rd 2008, 4:42 pm

1 female cat and her offspring will multiply to 420,000 in a seven year period..anyone got a male????

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