Dare County throwing fuel on the fire?

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Environmentals use terms like

Post  FriscoGirl on April 11th 2008, 7:52 pm

As Don Hummel said in 1987 in his book "Stealing The National Parks" page 2:

The basic problem is this: The nation's environmental groups seem devoted to what you could call the "lock-it-up-and-keep-'em-out" philosophy. As we shall see, leading environmentalists use the catchword of "ecological sensitivity" to "protect" America's scenic treasures from the people who own them. Environmentalists contend that a massive crush of national park visitors is destroying the very wonders the parks were meant to preserve. It makes no difference that the facts show quite another story. The contention is a matter of dogma, a feature of environmental ideology. A certain breed of environmentalist wants the great outdoors returned to a state of "pristine nature" and "ecological integrity." In practical application, those glowing terms mean limiting people access - and that means denying the American public its rightful use of our national parks.

FriscoGirl

Number of posts : 38
Registration date : 2008-04-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

respectfully the choice is not between birds/turtles and humans

Post  aarrgghh on April 11th 2008, 7:28 pm

The choice really is not either or. The science has NOT shown that in OBX! I am all for preservation and respectfulness of wildlife and their habitats but this lawsuit is NOT about that. The SELC has hand picked their studies for their benefit. Again I do not expect Derb to make our case. He would not be a "good enviornmentalist" if he did. It is all of our responsibility to keep the information transparent and accurate. That means we get real organized and real vocal. The message cannot be birds/turtles versus humans. We will lose on that alone.

aarrgghh

Number of posts : 3
Registration date : 2008-04-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

EXTINCTION

Post  HYDRAFISH2 on April 11th 2008, 4:50 pm

THIS STILL COMES DOWN TO THE BOTTOM LINE QUESTION IF YA HAD TO CHOOSE BETWEEN THE PLOVER:TURTLES AND OTHER WILDLIFE, AND A HUMAN BEING WHICH SIDE WOULD COME DOWN ON? WHERE IS THE PRIORITY? YES, WE WANT TO PRESERVE NATURE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, HOWEVER THE EXTREMES ON BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE ARE WHAT IS STAGNATING THE PROGRESS FOR BOTH SIDES. GREAT INSIGHT AND INFO IN LAST POST MAD. bounce
avatar
HYDRAFISH2

Number of posts : 65
Registration date : 2008-04-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Mass extinction, ORV's and birds

Post  MadMarv on April 11th 2008, 4:35 pm

Research is indicating that we are the midst of the greatest mass extinction since the dinosaurs were wiped out by an asteroid 65 million years ago. Most of this is due to human activity. True, some species will go extinct in the absence of human activity, but many are being driven out of their habitats by development and pollution.

A better question is whether this is the case with the piping plover and other shore birds. On Hatteras island, the habitat is still largely undeveloped, although the dune line has been unnatural since the CCC in the 30's built the dunes up. Not much that can be done about that. So the scientific question is whether current human activity is responsible for loss of species, and a better question, whether species are indeed being lost here.

Based upon surveys, it seems like only about 5% of the Atlantic piping plover population breeds on the Outer Banks. Most breed further north and come to the Outer Banks to winter over. So the question is, is this their normal niche, or is it at limit of it's southern range. If so, it may not be as well adapted to the environment here than further north and thus you might expect large annual variations based upon climate and other natural factors. The numbers of nests in the dataset is so small to make a good statistical analysis of trends very difficult.

Another question that must be answered is how many nests or eggs/hatchlings are killed by ORV's. In the park services report on nests in 2007, I didn't see any. Predation seemed to be the main problem. If this is natural (ie raccoons or ghost crabs) then that is what it is, and there's not much that can be done about it - natural selection will decide who wins. If it is feral cats, the human population probably then shares the blame. A program to capture and neuter or remove feral cats would probably have a much more significant effect on the population than banning regulated ORV driving (regulated to keep the ORV's away from the nests during breeding season, as the park service has been doing). People who regularly feed feral cats should take on the obligation of having them spayed or neutered, or better, to take them in and not let them roam, as should people who own cats in general. Very few suburban areas have any song birds, due to cat predation. Perhaps the park service can set up a free clinic to do so using local vets who would volunteer their time to spay and neuter to reduce the feral population.

The bottom line is to use good science, not junk science or anecdotal evidence, and find real solutions, not simplistic solutions like banning all ORVs. Sort of like using corn ethanol as a biofuel. Sounds great, but apparently it takes almost as much energy to distill it as it eventually releases. So it sounds great, but in the end, it's not such a great idea for saving carbon dioxide emissions. Of course the fact that it is domestic rather than imported may have some economic advantages, but it diverting corn to ethanol also raises the price of beef. In the end it would be better to put up windmills on Diamond Shoals and use the electricity to generate hydrogen (and again have to fight the Audubon society and their fears not facts, as they are doing with the wind farm being built off Cape Cod).

Yes, man is currently causing a mass extinction due to pollution and habitat loss, but that does not mean that ORV's are what is causing the decline of shore birds on the Outer Banks.

MadMarv
Guest


Back to top Go down

WIPING OUT SPECIES?

Post  HYDRAFISH2 on April 11th 2008, 2:11 pm

IN REPONSE TO MAC123 THE PERPETUATION OF SPECIES IS NATURAL. WHAT IF THERE WE NO HUMANS ON THE ISLAND AT ALL? YOU HAVE TO ASK LOGICALLY WOULD THEY NATURALLY SURVIVE? TAKE MAN OUT OF THE EQUATION AND ASK YOURSELF IF THE RECENT HURRICANES AND SHIFTING TIDES WOULD NOT HAVE DONE THE SAME. AS ONE POSTER WROTE, THERE IS MORE GOING ON HERE OTHER THAN TURTLES AND PLOVERS. INCIDENTALLY, I HAVE YET TO SEE ANYONE INTENTIONALLY RUN A PLOVER OR TURTLE'S NEST OVER.THE INSTANCES OF THOSE ANIMALS DEATHS WERE ATTRIBUTED TO THE RANGERS THEMSELVES PATROLLING THE PARK. I DO NOT BELIEVE THE HUMAN SIDE OF THIS FACTOR ARE INHERITANTLY MEAN. ALSO, IF YOU HAD TO CHOOSE BETWEEN THE BIRDS OR A FAMILY MOVING TO A SHELTER, OR GOING ON FOOD STAMPS WOULD THE LIFE OF THAT PLOVER OR TURTLE BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN A HUMAN BEINGS' LIFE. I BELIEVE WE DO NOT GIVE NATURE HER DUE WHEN IT COMES TO THINGS LIKE THIS. NEW SPECIES ARE DISCOVERED EVERY DAY AND SPECIES THAT DO NOT HAVE THE PROGRAMMING TO SURVIVE GO EXTINCT. HAS THE HUMAN RACE HELPED IN SOME OF THE EXTINCTIONS. YES. AS INDIVIDUALS I BELIEVE MOST PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY CAN TO MAKE SURE THEY TAKE CARE. HOWEVER THIS DOESN'T MEAN THAT GOOD INTENTIONS SHOULD OVERSHADOW COMMON SENSE. MODERATION IN THINGS SHOULD BE THE KEY. EXTREMISM HAS NEVER BEEN PRODUCTIVE FOR ANYTHING EXCEPT FOR GREED AND PERSONAL AGENDAS. bounce
avatar
HYDRAFISH2

Number of posts : 65
Registration date : 2008-04-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

FERAL CATS

Post  toothtel on April 5th 2008, 3:34 pm

I agree that the feral cats are a problem.However I can't stand to see them hungry, so I feed them. Over a 2 year period we have trapped 7 and paid to have them vaccinated and neutered. I wish there was a better support system for the ferals. It is a lot of work to trap them and transport to and from the vet and expensive.But if more people would do this or donate money it might help.Perhaps I will appeal to the Audubon and the Defenders of Wildllife.

toothtel
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Dare County throwing fuel on the fire?

Post  Frank Folb Jr on April 5th 2008, 3:10 pm

You are correct EDj, but on your last comment about the Judge. I fear that his actions and comments in the past leave little hope that he will do the right thing.

Have the eco nuts topld him or any one else about all the nesting birds on the islands in the sound? No because they don't want the truth to be heard!!

Frank Folb Jr

Number of posts : 68
Registration date : 2008-04-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

ORV Use

Post  EdJ on April 5th 2008, 3:00 pm

As I sit here on this beautiful "Hatteras day" rainy with a 20 to 30 MPH wind, I read the Plantiff's suit which inspired me to voice my opinion. It's not the ORV's or the individuals walking up and down the beach that is causing the Plovers to vacate Hatteras. What is causing them to go to other places is the environment itself. They have been taught better than to build their house on sand, close to a raging Ocean. High tides, ferral cats, and other predators are what is wiping out the Plovers not ORV use. We must have faith that the Judge will recognize this if it comes to him having to make a decision on the future of the "human residents" of Hatteras Island.

EdJ
Guest


Back to top Go down

educate yourself!

Post  realist on April 5th 2008, 12:02 pm

You're right about one thing: we don't have the right to determine the survival of a species! Therefore, why are you supporting the destruction of Hatteras Island residents?...Most of which are NOT wealthy people, yet still depend upon tourism for their survival...and many of these island natives coulnd't survive elsewhere themselves. As for those bird species that you desire to protect, DO YOUR RESEARCH, keeping our beaches open will not impact the wildlife to the degree of extinction.

And for those of you who believe that the loss of revenue for the Outer Banks and the state of NC is an exaggerated estimate if the beaches were to close, you clearly need to do your research as well. Talk to anyone who lives here year round. What career opportunities exist on the island outside of tourism?...Beach closures would mean financial devastation to many families...families with children to support, families who have been on the island for generations, families who don't know how to live in the cities that our tourist so desperately want to escape when they come here.

realist
Guest


Back to top Go down

First off

Post  Frank Folb Jr on April 5th 2008, 9:43 am

It was not Ocracoke that was losing 4% It was Hyde county and when you figure that Ocracoke is the main attraction for Hyde cointy You can bet that Ocracoke will lose a lot more than what is reported.

As for this staement

," WE DO NOT HAVE THE "RIGHT" TO EXTINGUISH A SPECIES BECAUSE OF PLAY OR MONEY."

Do you know how many piping plovers you are talking about on Hatteras Island and Ocracoke??!!
On average---3 pairs!! Audobon themselves have admitted that the survival of the few hatched birds will niether make or break the overall survival of the species!!! Last year on the Mississippi River there were hundreds of piping plover chicks killed just to get a barge load of dog food down river. Yet these people are trying to screw up a already screwed up economy.

Frank Folb Jr

Number of posts : 68
Registration date : 2008-04-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Dare County throwing fuel on the fire?

Post  mac123 on April 4th 2008, 10:38 am

From what I have seen most tourists are very respectful of the islands and we want them to continue to come back. We are grateful for their visits and the boost they have given to our economy. If some of the beaches are closed to ORV's there may be lost revenue, but I don't believe for a minute that it will be to the extent that Dare county "claims" it will be. I suspect Dare county officials along with some prominent businessmen are inflating the financial ramafications of this possible ban in order to gain support for their "special interest" groups. Yes, the Dune Buggy Association is a special interest group along with other organizations like them. So, when you call the Audobon Society and Defenders of Wilderness "special interest groups" don't forget that you most likely have & support your own "special Interest Groups". Dare County has even supported it's own special interest groups. Remember all those condos they allowed to be built in marshland as you enter onto Roanoke Island? What another eyesore. Also,
Interesting that I heard that Hyde county reported that Ocracoke's estimated loss is only about 4% of what Dare county "claims" Hatteras Island will be. Why is Hyde County's estimate so much less? Granted Ocracoke is smaller but not THAT much smaller. Maybe Hyde county's estimate is an honest one?. I suspect Dare county is throwing fuel on the fire.

I'd also like to reiterate I am not happy that the Point, Oregon Inlet, and the south beaches may need to be closed, but if it has to be done to protect yet another species then so be it. To repeat what another post already said, WE DO NOT HAVE THE "RIGHT" TO EXTINGUISH A SPECIES BECAUSE OF PLAY OR MONEY. I'm sure all those ladies & gents back in the 1800's felt they had a "right" to those exotic feathers in their hats righ on up to the day the last dodo bird was killed. I support the Audobon Society & Defenders of Wilderness & will continue to do so even though this law suit may have an impact on the way I enjoy the beach. My "right" to play & make lots of money does not supersede the right of other species to survive.

mac123
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Dare County throwing fuel on the fire?

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum